Brad: 00:04

Hello, and welcome. Thank you for joining us in this podcast series for Integrative Arts and Humanities course 241e, social dance history and contemporary reflections. Okay. Awesome. We are here with assistant professor of dance at Alma College, former visiting professor of dance at Michigan State University, and all around dance genius and its master, Rosalie Connes.

Brad: 00:40

Thank you so much for joining us.

Rosely: 00:42

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure.

Brad: 00:47

What do you what do you think about that title? Do you like dance genius?

Rosely: 00:54

I don't know. So so pretentious. Yeah.

Brad: 00:58

It is.

Rosely: 00:58

But it it yeah. It's good when it's applied to a woman.

Brad: 01:03

There we go.

Rosely: 01:04

Sometimes it it goes to towards men. So

Brad: 01:06

Yeah. It's a little bit harder when when when you

Rosely: 01:09

Yeah. But it yeah.

Brad: 01:12

So tell us tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you become dance genius?

Rosely: 01:19

So I am from Brazil. I was born and raised there. I studied dance when I was started studying dance when I was 6. Ballet was my first language in dance. And, Afro Brazilian dances, like, were all always part of my life, but I didn't associate them with formal learning of these because that was something that I used to do at parties or with my family.

Rosely: 01:51

So serious dance for me was always ballet and modern collater. I completed my BFA in Brazil, and I also have an MA, master's in arts, in performing arts, which is a degree that combines themes, theater, and performance from Brazil from State University of Campinas, Brazil. And I in 2014, I came to the United States to do my MFA, master's of fine arts in beans at University of Colorado at Boulder. Soon after I finished that, I was fortunate enough to get a position as a visiting professor at Michigan State, which was amazing. It was a great year.

Rosely: 02:35

And now I'm I am at Alma College in a in a tenure track, and that's a little bit about me.

Brad: 02:44

That's amazing. So you've you've pretty much been performing, researching, loving, and, teaching dance your entire life?

Rosely: 02:57

Pretty much. Yes. My husband and I, we have a joke that, when he invites me for something, the default answer is I cannot. I have rehearsal. So I've been performing professionally in dance companies in Brazil and in here in the United States, choreographing.

Rosely: 03:19

I would say now, going more into the realm of screen dance. So I make dance for camera films. I'm learning more about this hybrid genre. And I always bring my roots with me even more now in the United States. I recognize myself as Brazilian through my experience with Afro Brazilian lien.

Rosely: 03:42

So those became even more present here than they were back in Brazil, which is ironic. But, yeah.

Brad: 03:49

That's fascinating. That's fascinating. You know, part of that that really that excites me is that idea of of, you know because I know that you were using film as a medium, you know, long before we were forced to have these sort of classes. So did you feel like when when everything hit, you feel like you were still able to kind of bring a sense of yourself and a sense of your teaching through through through film and through, like, online teaching?

Rosely: 04:22

Yeah. I think I before, the COVID 19 pandemic, I saw film as an artistic tool, mostly. And now I'm I was forced like every 1 of us to see it as an educational tool. So I I'm thinking a lot about that and how through film can we replicate some things, what is lost, what is gained, in this relationship with students, with, audiences, with the the art of deans?

Brad: 04:55

That's fabulous. Well, we're we have an exciting conversation today. The module for this class is titled, dances of the oppressed, and it's it's basically doing a, a brief overview of of dances that that were kind of, created and fostered out of suppression and, or oppression or, illegality or, you know, some sort of kind of strict guidelines of of sort by the, by the ruling class or by the haves. So we we have a lot of things to talk about, but 1 of the ones that comes to mind and the reason, you were blessed with your presence here is that you have a, you have a lot of experience with Capoeira. Can you tell us what that is?

Rosely: 05:59

Yes. So capoeira is this Afro Brazilian dance slash fight. It came with, the slave trade in Brazil, around 15 thirties ish. And it's hard to trace exactly where it's from in in Africa. But because most of the enslaved populations that were brought to Brazil forcibly, they come from Angola, Congo, some from Nigeria.

Rosely: 06:40

We scholars believe that these 3 countries were the main sources of of the Afro Brazilian dances in Brazil, including Capoeira. It was it was a dance of resistance because first, it was connected to the African roots of the enslaved people in Brazil. So it was a way to remember the their chants, their sing their songs, and and it was a way to keep moving in a way that was close to the roots. So it was a way to embody, tradition. It was a way to, keep active, like, keep owning your own body, which is the first thing that slavery takes away from you.

Rosely: 07:31

Like, you're not the owner of yourself anymore, which is crazy. So the act of moving and moving forcefully and moving sometimes aggressively was important for enslaved people in that in those conditions because it gave them a sense of ownership again and and belonging.

Brad: 07:51

That's happening. And I I've never heard it put put that way where it, you know, it's like if there's there's 1 thing that you can't you can't take away from me, it's just how I exist inside of this body and how I can and how I can how I can move that body. But, of course, they try to.

Rosely: 08:12

Yes. There are 2 main styles of capoeira in Brazil. 1 is called capoeiraangola, which comes more directly scholars trace it more directly to the country of Angola. And the other 1 is called, which which in English, it's regional. That's how you spell it.

Rosely: 08:36

And the styles, they have lots of similarities amongst them, but they also have some differences. There's a lot of debate in terms of, oh, is Angola the more traditional, the more authentic authentic 1? Is regional the more modernized. Some some scholars even say whitewashed, but I disagree with that. I think, both of them are genuinely capoeira styles.

Rosely: 09:05

And they both have their specificities and both of them reflect somehow both the African influences that they have and the the inventions, the creations that happen when, the enslaved people came to Brazil, which is which is a natural process that happens with traditions. They change according to the context, to the history, to whoever is whoever is involved in them.

Brad: 09:33

Right.

Rosely: 09:33

So I personally and some scholars too reject this notion that capoeira reginal is less capoeira. But both of them are, again, a form of a sort of dance and a fight. And they they started first in the state of Bahia, which is northeast of Brazil. It was the first capital of Brazil by enslaved people. The reason that they needed to disguise this was because, of course, they were not allowed to to move and to express themselves in the ways that they wanted to, or that they felt important for themselves.

Rosely: 10:14

They were persecuted. They were beaten up. So, that's why Kapoeira sometimes is said as disguise as a means. Even though when you look at Kapoeira Angola, I tell my students it resembles a lot of, contact improvisation. There's a lot of weight sharing and a lot of improvisation.

Rosely: 10:36

Capoeira is improvised. Right? You you're fighting someone and you don't have anything choreographed to rely on. You need to be in the moment responding to the other person.

Brad: 10:48

So that's really interesting, because, you know, some of the dances we're talking about in this class refer to such strict pomp and circumstance that everybody has to know the same step. But what you're saying is basically they have, like, an understanding of what it is, and then in the moment, they kind of create it and improvise?

Rosely: 11:12

Yes. Yes. So you it depends on the style. Again, Angola is more improvised than Gejonal, mostly because Angola is really close to the floor. You have your knees bent all the time.

Rosely: 11:28

You have a lot of inversions, so upside down movements. There are not a lot of kicks in in Angola. Like, when you look at it, it it's like 2 people are moving together and responding to each other as as a way to not hurt the other person. So that's 1 important aspect of capoeira. You're not trying necessarily to hurt your your fellow player.

Rosely: 11:57

We say play in capoeira. We don't say fight. You're you're trying to make that person miss miss a kick, miss, you fall on their butts, but not in a way that they will get permanently hurt or something like that. It's not about today. It's not about blood.

Rosely: 12:17

Some I tell my students when they if they find a group that plays like that, they run. There are some still, but that's not what Capoeira stands for nowadays. Is more virtuosic. Like, you see more kicks. It's faster.

Rosely: 12:35

The music is faster. We are gonna talk about music in a while. But you notice the rhythm, it heats up. And the other strategy that was used to disguise capoeira was, the fact that it was played in a circle. So the the the players would form a circle, which we call in Portuguese.

Brad: 12:58

You said it already called?

Rosely: 12:59

O d It's R0DA. Okay. So you if you are outside of the circle, you cannot necessarily see what is going on inside. So it becomes a protective place. And then you play the the players play inside the circle, and people take turns coming in and out.

Brad: 13:23

Oh, I see. It's almost as if it's like a like a wall around it.

Rosely: 13:27

Exactly. Oh, yes.

Brad: 13:28

And you

Rosely: 13:29

have the instruments too, playing in that in that circle, and people sing and clap. So that's another another aspect of the participatory, characteristic of this form. So everyone is part of the game, even though you're not playing necessarily, like, you're not moving in pairs, which happens in the at the center of the circle. You were sustaining the circle by singing, by playing, by playing the instruments that I'm gonna, tell you about. But, everyone is integrated in that moment.

Brad: 14:05

Oh, that's fantastic. So every so everyone has a has a part to play, but there always are 2 featured players.

Rosely: 14:13

Exactly. Oh, right. And, the order usually that they come in is by hierarchy. So if you are new to the group, you chances are that you're gonna be invited to come into the circle if you want to to play, but you're gonna be last. There's a sort of, hierarchy in terms of age.

Rosely: 14:36

So all their players and people that are playing for more time, they they have preference. They come into play first, like, setting the standards of of that, for example. And the other thing is the masteries, the masters. So in capoeira, you have masteries, which are, people that teach you, and they usually learn from their masters. So there's that relationship, that is very similar to other forms of things like ballet, where who you trained with, is important because it tells you what 1, what are your style.

Rosely: 15:14

Are you more aligned with Angola or regional? And where do you come from? Like, who is your master tells everyone who who you are somehow. Wow.

Brad: 15:25

That's fascinating. So it's somebody who's really who's really, you know, knowledgeable and kind of like a lifelong learner in this form. It's almost like it's almost like a secret body language. You can tell so much about a person based off of how they how they react and how they perform.

Rosely: 15:44

Yeah. How they enter the, you can tell, like, oh, this is and we call them when they pick when they play Angola, they are. You can tell, like, this is an or this is a person that was trained more in. Yeah. There is, like, a signature to it.

Brad: 16:04

That's that's really that's really cool. So if what what would our students expect, to hear? So let's talk about the auditory nature of it because I know it's important. Do do you have any samples of music

Rosely: 16:25

Yes.

Brad: 16:26

Of any kind? And, you know, we can I can pull something up too, but, you know, I I'm assuming, as you as you find something, I'm assuming that that it's not just the instruments? It must be quite a vocal experience as well.

Rosely: 16:44

Yes. So, I'm gonna tell a little bit about the instruments themselves, and then I'm gonna play something for you to listen to. So Perfect. The main instrument, the main instrument in capoeira is called berimbau. And berimbau is an instrument that is super interesting because it has a string, and I can send you pictures of that.

Rosely: 17:10

But it also has a gourd. And it it's played like a percussion instrument, but also a stringed instrument. So it it's it's a hybrid. And the the sound comes from you put pulling the gourd closer or farther from your belly.

Brad: 17:29

No kidding.

Rosely: 17:32

Part of the sound. And then in the hall that you also have other instruments like a tambourine. In Portuguese, we say pandero. You have the cowbells Mhmm. Too, which are agogo.

Rosely: 17:48

And you have a large drum most of the times that is called in Portuguese. But mostly people if people don't have any of these instruments, there has to be a bidding back.

Brad: 18:03

Okay. So that's, like, that's

Rosely: 18:05

the That's the default. And the bidding bow, another important thing about it is that, it differs in the the size of the gourd, which is called cabasa. The size of the cabasa determines the sound of the bidding bell, but also the hierarchy of who plays the bidding bell. So you have the the big 1, the the the large if you have a large, cabasa, that dating bow is the gunga, is the largest 1. It keeps the base of the the ribbon.

Rosely: 18:45

And then you have the medium, which is called in Portuguese. It's just translating medium. And you have the viola, which is the smallest 1. The is interesting because it's usually played the larger 1, it's usually played by the the mastery and the. If there are 2 masters, then the older 1 will play it.

Rosely: 19:09

And, if the goong if you don't know how to play very well, the goonga will overpower everything, and you cannot listen to any other instrument. So it's a characteristic of a good leader that they know how to keep the pace and they know how to be assertive in the sound. But at the same time, they cannot overpower everything else.

Brad: 19:31

Listening just like the dancers are listening.

Rosely: 19:34

Exactly.

Brad: 19:34

Wow. That's very interesting.

Rosely: 19:37

And they determine so if they if they see for example, I've been where people get super heated up and they are about to hurt each other because they get carried away, then the goonga is what cools down.

Brad: 19:51

Oh, wow.

Rosely: 19:53

Like, the rhythm or speeds it up. If the is too like, if people are not engaging as much, then then you see the mastering, the goomba, like, bringing

Brad: 20:03

Come on. Come on. Let's go. Let's go.

Rosely: 20:05

Exactly. Yeah. Let's pick it up. Or woah.

Brad: 20:07

Woah. Slow it down.

Rosely: 20:09

Yeah. Slow the slow slowing down, it's more common, to be honest. Like, I I I've always noticed when the the is about to get dangerous, it's the it's the sound of the that brings it, to a safe Yeah. Safe pacing, let's say. So the the language that you're gonna hear is Brazilian Portuguese, which is a little bit different from Portuguese from Portugal.

Rosely: 20:38

There are a lot of similarities. We can understand each other. But, there's some differences too. And sometimes there's some, words or words that are inserted in some songs just because of that, tradition from from African countries. And, the last I think I was gonna say, there's call and response.

Rosely: 21:07

So you will hear that the person who is playing the goonga calls and the the course, the rest of the players respond to it. So there is that dynamic of call and response.

Brad: 21:19

Oh, fabulous.

Rosely: 21:37

So this is an instrumental 1 that I put just for you to to listen to the rhythm, and you can hear the tambourine Yeah. Too. The and playing together. Okay. And this kind of song is called.

Rosely: 21:53

There are different, rhythms that can be done with the bidding bao. This 1 is very characteristic of Angola. So it's it's slow it's slow compared to other horns.

Brad: 22:17

So I'm noticing 2 tones. Is that is the tonal change the string or the distance between are they, like is it farther away from the valley?

Rosely: 22:28

Yeah. Oh, cool. And there's also the pressure. So you play with a rock, in your hand. So you put pressure on the string with this rock or take it away.

Rosely: 22:41

So it's a mixture of belly, proximity, and also amount of pressure on the string. So this is 1 of the most traditional songs everyone will listen in some capoeira group. If you ever join it, it's, the default that people associate with capoeira. So I'm gonna play it

Brad: 23:07

for you. Okay. I love that.

Rosely: 23:49

So did you did you notice the response?

Brad: 23:58

Yeah. I loved it. It was really beautiful. I feel like there's I feel like it's it's so it's so rich in its simplicity, and it feels like it's like I might be overemotionalizing this, but it feels like it's, like, such an ancient, kinda human sound. Like, you can hear this in so many different cultures and different different kind of ways.

Brad: 24:25

It's almost just like a natural I don't know. It's really beautiful. I love that.

Rosely: 24:31

Nice. Yeah. I like it too.

Brad: 24:35

So, it's it's something that we can get involved in here.

Rosely: 24:42

You can. There capoeira spread out to different countries in the world. So if you go to Israel, you can play capoeira. If you go to China, you can play capoeira. In Michigan, we have some people doing it in, Ann Arbor, Detroit, of course.

Rosely: 25:05

And also Lansing, I couldn't when I was there, I couldn't find a master, but I found a which is a person just right below a, and they can teach as well. And his name is Mestri Forca. Okay. He actually teaches F0RCACA.

Brad: 25:26

Okay.

Rosely: 25:27

And he teaches at the I think it's the Presbyterian Church on Pennsylvania Avenue.

Brad: 25:35

Okay.

Rosely: 25:35

I can I can give you all this information if you want later? He charges very little for the classes. And it's a good group. Like, people come and go, but, and he does a style that is some people call contemporary style of capoeira, which is a mix of Angola and Rejona. So it's not pure Angola, not pure Rejona.

Rosely: 25:59

It's it's a mixture. Yeah. You asked me about if Capoeira was actually banned, since we were talking about the instances of the oppressed. And I did some research on that because I was like, I know this happened, but I don't know exactly when.

Brad: 26:20

Oh, yeah.

Rosely: 26:21

So, what I found out is that it when Brazil Brazil was, invaded by Portugal, so it was a a colony of Portugal. Even after its independence, it's it was still a slavery based on slavery, and it was a monarchy. It's interesting that most scholars tell us that the monarchy was fairly, tolerant of these practices of enslaved people. They allowed it. You could be prosecuted, but it was informal.

Rosely: 26:59

There is not nothing official that said capoeira cannot be done. When Brazil becomes a republic, which happened in, 1830, then, the practice is forbidden.

Brad: 27:18

Really?

Rosely: 27:20

The first, criminal code of Brazil in 18/90 explicitly says that capoeira is a crime, that you can be arrested, deported, or put into forced labor. Wow. So if you were caught playing capoeira on the streets, probably you will be beaten up by the police of the time, but you would also be, committing a crime. Oh. So that's around, like, 18 nineties.

Rosely: 27:55

And then right at that time, like, about 5 or 10 10 years later, people start talking about capoeira as and by people, I mean, scholars, like, elite people in Brazil. They start claiming capoeira as part of national identity. So it it starts to change the way that people see it. It becomes more institutionalized. Around 1964, Brazil was, subject to a dictatorship, the military dictatorship.

Rosely: 28:31

And and, the narrative changes to capoeira is our national identity. It's part of what being Brazilian is. So it starts being associated with that sense of national pride. Almost like the system incorporated something that was once outlawed Mhmm. To create discourses around Brazilianness.

Brad: 29:01

Oh my goodness. So it's had quite quite a history.

Rosely: 29:06

Right.

Brad: 29:25

What what do you see social dance as now or communities and and and movement? Like, how do you see it? How can it be used in 2020? Is it is there a way for it to bring to bring, all the beautiful things that you mentioned before back? Is it in this time?

Brad: 29:44

I know this is kind of a tough question, but, I mean, how do you see it being used as a tool to for change or empowerment?

Rosely: 29:55

I think if we go back to the very beginning of our conversation, what can online instruction provide and what we lose and what we gain, 1 thing that we gain is the possibility of watching videos. So seeing things, informing yourself, looking at these dances as part of culture, as part of people, as part of history. And for me, what I'm, of course, a a person that, I'm passionate about dance. And I think dance brings this unique opportunity to embody the past. So you're not just learning about it intellectually, but you're actually embodying it, bringing it to your flesh, to your bones, to your cells, to your sweat, to your emotions.

Rosely: 30:45

It's it's something that involves your whole being. So I think in that sense, I feel like it's a possibility of understanding your past beyond intellectual, engagement, and it provides a visceral engagement with it. I feel we lose the possibility of contact, of proximity until maybe we find a vaccine or maybe some things change, that will allow us to to coexist in the same space because that's what capoeira is about. It's about playing with someone else, but I wouldn't be discouraged, by that fact. I in the end of the, last semester at Alma, I thought I needed to teach parts of my class online, my Afro Brazilian dance class.

Rosely: 31:48

And we found strategies to continue feeling that sense of strength, fierceness, movement in our homes. So I asked students to place, like, a bench in a a stool in front of them, and they would play with the stool. I had, like, a Pilatus ball in front of me, and I would move with it as well to just keep feeling what I feel when I play cup with it. It's not the same thing, but, it keeps us active. It keeps that sense of ownership of the body, of movement, of, connection to history and and listening to the music and singing, even if you don't know the words.

Rosely: 32:38

I I again, I joke with my students. I'm like, you hear me speaking English with you all the time with my accent. I'm not ashamed of it. I make mistakes. I continue.

Rosely: 32:48

Please do the same. Just just replicate some sort of sound. Like, you can even mimic some version. It doesn't mean if it's right or wrong when you're when you're responding to to capoeira and we are playing together or even at your living room. Just do it because singing is also part of your body.

Rosely: 33:10

Right? So it brings you that whole, vocalization that comes with it and influences in movement as well.

Brad: 33:18

That's awesome. That gave me chills thinking about that because it you referring it back to the ownership of the of the body is so such a strong such a strong way to to think about not only what's going on with the protests, but also with our lack of of connection, you know, is still feeling like we are who we were. That's wonderful. Before we go, is there is there anything else that you feel like you're like, there's 1 other thing that I just wanted that's 1 thing I wanted to mention.

Rosely: 33:54

Yeah. There are some, online classes that are being offered right now in capoeira for beginners included. So if even if you don't have prior experience with the form, there are some groups I am doing, classes with this group that is from the, West Coast, so there's the time difference there, but it's usually fine for us in the in the eastern time. They charge donation based classes. So if if the students are interested, I can forward that information to you.

Rosely: 34:29

I still have my, contacts when I used to train practice in Colorado as well. They are they are still doing some online classes. So I feel like if you're if you're interested or if you heard about the form and you were like, I would would give it a try. Again, it's not ideal because you'll not be there in the same room, but there are plenty of opportunities for just just to try it out and no judgment, no pressure. It's just a good exercise.

Rosely: 35:02

It's also good cultural practice.

Brad: 35:05

Yeah. Please send send me that. I'll and I'll link I'll link that into the D2L, into the the online classroom so that so that, we can all do that together. That's fabulous. Rosalie, it was such a pleasure to get to hear from your vast wealth of knowledge.

Brad: 35:23

This has, been so exciting, to reconnect with you, and thank you so much for bringing all of this amazing information, to these students. I can't wait for them to listen to it.

Rosely: 35:36

Thank you.

Brad: 35:52

The views, information, and opinions expressed during this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not reflect official entities of Michigan State University. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform students enrolled in IAH241e social dance history and contemporary reflections course.